Comments on: Making Hay Over the Corpse of a Security Guard http://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/06/11/making-hay-over-the-corpse-of-a-security-guard/ Delivering the Best of the New Media Since 2004. Fri, 25 May 2012 06:20:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Adam Lanphierhttp://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/06/11/making-hay-over-the-corpse-of-a-security-guard/comment-page-1/#comment-684351 Adam Lanphier Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:40:59 +0000 http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=9143#comment-684351 the difference between something whose existence as a category you 'despise' and something against which we have been at 'war' for YEARS is a 'tiny point'? you're not on your game today. the difference between something whose existence as a category you 'despise' and something against which we have been at 'war' for YEARS is a 'tiny point'?

you're not on your game today.

]]> By: Adam Lanphierhttp://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/06/11/making-hay-over-the-corpse-of-a-security-guard/comment-page-1/#comment-684350 Adam Lanphier Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:37:57 +0000 http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=9143#comment-684350 so, 'terrorism' can only be a crime against a nation? even one committed against a single citizen? that's a very problematic definition, i'm sure you realize. how about the baptist minister who prays for obama's death? is that terrorism? is it terrorism when a muslim cleric prays for obama's death? that same baptist minister prayed for george tiller's death, mind you, and someone obliged. again, how would we treat a muslim cleric whose prayers resulted in a dead, high-profile american? i don't deny that von brunn is a nutjob. however, i predict (and pray that i am wrong) that we'll be seeing a lot more nutjobs like him and roeder for the duration of obama's term. you don't think so? so, 'terrorism' can only be a crime against a nation? even one committed against a single citizen? that's a very problematic definition, i'm sure you realize.

how about the baptist minister who prays for obama's death? is that terrorism? is it terrorism when a muslim cleric prays for obama's death? that same baptist minister prayed for george tiller's death, mind you, and someone obliged. again, how would we treat a muslim cleric whose prayers resulted in a dead, high-profile american?

i don't deny that von brunn is a nutjob. however, i predict (and pray that i am wrong) that we'll be seeing a lot more nutjobs like him and roeder for the duration of obama's term. you don't think so?

]]> By: Jimmiehttp://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/06/11/making-hay-over-the-corpse-of-a-security-guard/comment-page-1/#comment-684349 Jimmie Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:28:41 +0000 http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=9143#comment-684349 Actually, "terrorism" has a much larger definition. I only mentioned part of it. I was hoping to keep the scope of the conversation narrow because I do have other things to do than to niggle over a tiny point. There is a wealth of debate about hate crimes. It shouldn't be difficult to find both sides of the argument out there. Actually, "terrorism" has a much larger definition. I only mentioned part of it. I was hoping to keep the scope of the conversation narrow because I do have other things to do than to niggle over a tiny point.

There is a wealth of debate about hate crimes. It shouldn't be difficult to find both sides of the argument out there.

]]> By: Jimmiehttp://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/06/11/making-hay-over-the-corpse-of-a-security-guard/comment-page-1/#comment-684347 Jimmie Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:23:06 +0000 http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=9143#comment-684347 You also did a little goalpost shifting there, too. The Muslim who shot the two soldiers in front of a recruiting station did not shoot them because they were white, Christian Americans (as I recall, one of them wasn't white, but I could be wrong about that). He shot them because they were American soldiers. Also, von Brunn did not specifically hate Israel, but Jews. Also, he hated President Bush, "neocons" (which is often a slur meaning "Jews"), Christians, Blacks, Bill O'Reilly, and a few others I'm sure I've left out. If you can divine a coherent political worldview in that mishmash of paranoia and hatred, you're doing far better than anyone else. You also did a little goalpost shifting there, too. The Muslim who shot the two soldiers in front of a recruiting station did not shoot them because they were white, Christian Americans (as I recall, one of them wasn't white, but I could be wrong about that). He shot them because they were American soldiers.

Also, von Brunn did not specifically hate Israel, but Jews. Also, he hated President Bush, "neocons" (which is often a slur meaning "Jews"), Christians, Blacks, Bill O'Reilly, and a few others I'm sure I've left out. If you can divine a coherent political worldview in that mishmash of paranoia and hatred, you're doing far better than anyone else.

]]> By: Adam Lanphierhttp://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/06/11/making-hay-over-the-corpse-of-a-security-guard/comment-page-1/#comment-684346 Adam Lanphier Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:22:21 +0000 http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=9143#comment-684346 so, 'terrorism' is a legitimate category of crime, even though its sole defining feature is its perpetrator's intent? and hate crimes are illegitimate for the same reason? by the way, you mean 'effect' political change. i guess you're disqualified from political office for the next 30 years or so. so, 'terrorism' is a legitimate category of crime, even though its sole defining feature is its perpetrator's intent? and hate crimes are illegitimate for the same reason?

by the way, you mean 'effect' political change. i guess you're disqualified from political office for the next 30 years or so.

]]> By: Jimmiehttp://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/06/11/making-hay-over-the-corpse-of-a-security-guard/comment-page-1/#comment-684344 Jimmie Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:17:57 +0000 http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=9143#comment-684344 As I said in my last comment, I believe the current standard is that an act of terrorism has to have the intent to affect a political change. Roeder's murder of Tiller likely qualifies. Neither of the other two quite gets there. Please don't ask me to explain a hate crime. Their purpose mystifies me. It seems to me they exist to enforce the prevailing worldview of folks who believe they are wise enough to control how a person thinks. As I said in my last comment, I believe the current standard is that an act of terrorism has to have the intent to affect a political change. Roeder's murder of Tiller likely qualifies. Neither of the other two quite gets there.

Please don't ask me to explain a hate crime. Their purpose mystifies me. It seems to me they exist to enforce the prevailing worldview of folks who believe they are wise enough to control how a person thinks.

]]> By: Adam Lanphierhttp://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/06/11/making-hay-over-the-corpse-of-a-security-guard/comment-page-1/#comment-684339 Adam Lanphier Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:07:02 +0000 http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=9143#comment-684339 'hate crimes' and 'terrorism' are strikingly similar, don't you think? both are meant to terrorize and render ineffectual a group of people, instead of a specific person. in fact, i'm hard pressed to think of a substantive difference between the two. what is the moral or legal difference between a muslim killing a white, christian american because of his hatred for america, and a white supremacist killing a holocaust museum employee because of his hatred for israel? a man walks into the holocaust museum, of all places, and opens fire -- this isn't terrorism?! 'hate crimes' and 'terrorism' are strikingly similar, don't you think? both are meant to terrorize and render ineffectual a group of people, instead of a specific person. in fact, i'm hard pressed to think of a substantive difference between the two.

what is the moral or legal difference between a muslim killing a white, christian american because of his hatred for america, and a white supremacist killing a holocaust museum employee because of his hatred for israel?

a man walks into the holocaust museum, of all places, and opens fire — this isn't terrorism?!

]]> By: Jimmiehttp://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/06/11/making-hay-over-the-corpse-of-a-security-guard/comment-page-1/#comment-684338 Jimmie Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:51:17 +0000 http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=9143#comment-684338 It's not similar. No, I don't think he should be charged as a terrorist, insofar as there was no evident attempt to affect political change by his actions (which, I believe, is the current standard). I'm on the fence about whether Roeder was attempting political change or not, though. It seems that even a marginally-rational look at what would come after Tiller's murder would show that little political change would happen, or if it did, it would be exactly the opposite of what Roeder supposedly intended. Von Brunn should be charged with hate crimes (and I believe he is), as much as I despise that such a thing exists. It's not similar.

No, I don't think he should be charged as a terrorist, insofar as there was no evident attempt to affect political change by his actions (which, I believe, is the current standard). I'm on the fence about whether Roeder was attempting political change or not, though. It seems that even a marginally-rational look at what would come after Tiller's murder would show that little political change would happen, or if it did, it would be exactly the opposite of what Roeder supposedly intended.

Von Brunn should be charged with hate crimes (and I believe he is), as much as I despise that such a thing exists.

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