It's not Sen. Obama's fault that the press wanted to know more about this "Joe the Plumber" or Joe "Six Pack" that McCain was using to make a point.

As it turns out, he's not a plumber, didn't pay his taxes and would actually benefit from Sen. Obama's tax plan more than he would with McCain's.

It's just another case of McCain not vetting good enough. All of his gambles (and I know he's a gambling man) are coming up craps. He should know more than most that the odds go to the house.

To blame Obama for something McCain used as debate fodder is not only ridiculous – it's boderline insanity. Even McCain apologized to "Joe the Plumber" when he was on Letterman last night. He knows himself that he pushed him into the limelight without even asking him beforehand if it would be alright if he used his name and life as a gimmick for his campaign.

Actually, Obama gave Joe a very detailed and objective response to his initial question when they met. He showed Joe respect, but didn't give him any false promises – he explained why he feels that it's right for someone making more than 1/4 million a year to pay more taxes than someone making 40,000.

Look at Treacher's reply above. None of those details you are arguing in order to discredit Joe Wurzelbacher, none of them matter at all. What people have a problem with is Obama's answer, what other people are avoiding by focusing on JW.

Bring yourself to forget all about Joe and think about Obama's answer. For people who make above 250K$, they should expect to be taxed more. The results? Here:

1. Those people/businesses who are taxed more because they make more in many cases may not be able to pay the salaries of their staff, buy suppplies, pay contractors, etc., thereby causing them to cut back in a bad way or shut down entirely.

2. The money taken from them, cleverly referred to as "taxes," will be used for programs to reward or support people who did nothing to earn it. Hence the expression "redistribution of wealth."

Not to insult your intelligence but what you seem to insist on not realising is that millions of people across this country care more about this distribution of wealth issue than whether Joe is operating without a license, or is allowed to because he works under someone else, &tc. In real life we have to choose our battles and I for one am not going to take up the fight over some guy in Ohio because he owes bloody 1800$ in back taxes. I'm more concerned with what Barack Obama wants to do with the money of this country's hard working citizens, money THEY earned but under his system will have no say in how it is spent. But that disgrace is being ignored because people like you are too busy distracting Americans with your hatefulness directed at a guy trying to bootstrap himself.

Are you even aware that something like 35% of people in this country don't even pay taxes? That means that the money stolen from Americans will result in others getting all their tax money back PLUS an extra fat check at the expense of people who worked for it.

It's punishing people who worked hard for what they have–in some cases by making them lose everything–and rewarding people who are content to play a parasitic role in society.

If someone doesn't want to work, that's their business. But I'm not willing to support them. And THAT is what this is all about, not some guy in Ohio.

I'm also infuriated that this man's life is being destroyed because he asked a question that needed to be asked, whether it applied to him or millions of others. I'm outraged that the MSM (and you, apparently) have the initiative to trash his life in the course of ONE DAY but are completely willing to give a pass–nay, not even bother to investigate–the shady and frightening details of a man who wants to run this country.

I'm with Jimmie–the tactics Barack Obama is employing now to shut this man up are criminal and completely anti-American. We have a tradition of free speech here, and an amendment to protect it, but the thugs in MSM and some in the blogosphere seem bent on destroying that, and you're helping them.

Well we could start with the press description of him being approached on the street talking with a whole lot of people who didn't live at Joe's place. Probably move on to the video that's everywhere of people 5 deep behind him. Stuff like that.

What is your understanding of it other than this is a description you've heard somewhere and have repeated it ?

Barack Obama gave the stupid answer that made this a story. If he had given one of his trademark banal answers, this wouldn’t be a story at all, especially because it was being reported int he news before John McCain used it in his campaign

Yes and how was it that this was treated by "the news" ? It was reported on the blogs of a couple of news sites on his bus. Then Fox and the NY Post picked it up, gave it the OMG HES A KARL MARX treatment and then the blogs took over.

As you say, that's when the McCain campaign decided Joe the plumber should become a major story.

Second, Obama had it well within his power to call back most, if not all, of the dogs off of Wurzelbacher.

No, you've stuffed that up. What dogs? What Obama? You've talked about McCain picking this up a couple of days before the debate when his campaign were talking the story up. No sign of anything but right-wing talking points involved so far.

You've gone from the bit where nobody knows who Joe is and skipped right to the post-debate media coverage interest in him. Wonder why that is.

He needs to own up to the fact that it was his ill-advised answer that fueled this, not the question or the questioner.

We did this part already. You think Obama should apologise for giving an answer to a voter which the right-wing blogs, press and the McCain campaign used to put this guy into the public spotlight, which put his job at risk.

Looks as convincing now as it did then.

Let me give you analogy that I hope you can get your head around. Imagine a football game where the running back fumbles the ball and someone from the opposing team picks it up and runs it back for a touchdown. Whose fault is it?

This is the most awesome blog post ever. Hands down.

Barack Obama fumbled the football. You’re blaming everyone else but him for it. Get real.

Yeah he did. Then you guys ran with that football for 3 whole days in the other direction, did a touchdown dance are now blaming the other team for you scoring.

Best.Ever.Hands.Down.

Nevertheless, you claim he "sought out television". You expect me to believe that a citizen of the United States who asks a candidate for President a question while standing in front of his own house is somehow seeking out the media spotlight and deserves to have his life trashed? That's simple nonsense.

On your second point, I have answered your question in two different ways. You just refuse to accept either as an answer. I will rephrase. Joe asked a question. Period.

Barack Obama gave the stupid answer that made this a story. If he had given one of his trademark banal answers, this wouldn't be a story at all, especially because it was being reported int he news before John McCain used it in his campaign Second, Obama had it well within his power to call back most, if not all, of the dogs off of Wurzelbacher. He not only didn't do it, but he piled on by making fun of him.

He needs to own up to the fact that it was his ill-advised answer that fueled this, not the question or the questioner.

Let me give you analogy that I hope you can get your head around. Imagine a football game where the running back fumbles the ball and someone from the opposing team picks it up and runs it back for a touchdown. Whose fault is it? Is it the defensive player's fault for playing good defense? It is the fault of the man who tackled the running back for doing what he's supposed to do? No, of course not. It's the fault of the running back for fumbling the football. You won't find a single person even remotely familiar witht he game who would say otherwise.

Barack Obama fumbled the football. You're blaming everyone else but him for it. Get real.

He's explained this himself. Why would you ask me ?

He's said he heard the questions Obama was answering with others, didn't think much of them and wanted him to answer his own question.

Clearly you've not actually heard him describe this since this is twice you've said Obama sought him out and not the other way around.

Your "Fact Check on Joe" is disputed by Joe. Now that's an achievement.

He asked a very simple question and Barack Obama gave a stupidly honest answer. That answer is what made this a story.

Correct. But not a big story. Hence nothing happened as a result other than this exchange got talked up on right wing blogs. I'm not going to bother explaining this again, memeorandum has a timestamp history function anyone can verify this with.

On the other hand, what put Joe in every media outlet you can poke a stick at was him being referenced 2 dozen times in a debate.

Hence all this looking into him happened after the debate and not before.

Either you want to say it was Obama that made him a centrepiece of that debate or you know this, you're just not honest enough to admit it.

Had Obama just spat out a talking point answer like he had a bazillion other times this campaign, there would be no story. No, he had to go and…

Yeah that's not an improvement from you. I've asked you twice how it is that Obama is more responsible for this man's life getting examined by the media.

You're now explicitly saying that it's Obama's fault because he provided the sound-byte that right-wing blogs and McCain have publicised ever since, now to the detriment of Joe The Plumber's career.

Do you really not see how that's you agreeing with me ?

That is Barack Obama’s fault and he has a responsibility to own up to it isntead of letting this average guy take his flak.

Own up his responsibility for talking to an average guy who the right-wing then turned into a household name, who's now suffered because he's in the media spotlight and no longer an average guy. Gotcha.

Yeah, do you think you should maybe take a minute to think about what you're writing ?

Basically the only thing stopping you agreeing with me is your inability to acknowledge your responsibility here. I mean FFS, you're doing this while McCain is releasing "Joe The Plumber" adverts. Could you be any more dishonest ?

The left simply MUST do everything they can to distract from the real issue, which is the words that came out of Obama's mouth of his own free will.

Therefore, to them, everything is about Joe Joe Joe!!! Look see this shiny penny!!!

But it's too late. Toto has already pulled back the curtain and exposed the socialist behind the curtain.

That answer is what made this a story. Had Obama just spat out a talking point answer like he had a bazillion other times this campaign, there would be no story. No, he had to go and pull back the mask on his banal socialism and give his opponent a very potent weapon.

That is Barack Obama's fault and he has a responsibility to own up to it isntead of letting this average guy take his flak.

It's also his fault that he's not lifted one finger to rein in the mob. I believe I wrote two paragraphs about that fact. Instead, he's making jokes about it on the campaign trail. See the update for that.