Yes, Lady, but You Watched Him Kill that Boy… (Updated and Bumped)
I can’t wrap my head around this story. It is inconceivable to me that five grown adults watched a man stomp a 2 year-old child to death and did nothing more than call 911. Their excuses and rationalizations for why they did next to nothing make no real sense to me. It all sounds like pathetic whining.
One of the witnesses said that folks like me who are critical of her and the four other people who were in the car with her “never know until they’re in that situation”. I will say this. I do not know exactly what I would do in a similar situation, but I do know for damned sure that had I been there I would have tried to stop him using every bit of knowledge and strength I had. I would not have watched the man kick that boy “at least 100 times” over seven minutes. I can say that without a shadow of a doubt.
It is unbelievable to me that another human being could have a doubt about that. I read that lady’s quotes and I have nothing to say to her except, “Yes, Lady, but you watched him kill that boy and you did nothing to stop him.”
UPDATE: The little boy’s name was Axel Casian. Does it matter that we know his name? I really don’t know. I think maybe it should matter, at least to the people who watched his father murder him. Maybe we should spend a few brain cells on remembering his name so that if, God forbid, we should ever happen across a situation where we need to take action to save someone’s life, the remembrance of his name will spur us to action. Maybe a few minutes of introspection in his honor, considering what we might do if someone needs our help, would be a suitable tribute today.
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Category: The Social Issues
If you're wondering why people would not intervene… welcome to California!
I will tell you my story. I once witnessed a bunch of teenagers throw rocks at moving vehicles at the local mall, and warned them to move on several times before one of them picked up a boulder and HEAVED it at the windshield of a passing motorist – a middle-aged woman who would have probably been killed or seriousy maimed if it had hit it's mark. Fortunately it missed by a few feet, but I saw a definite problem in the works. I told the kid who threw the boulder to "get the hell" out of there and chased him out of the parking lot. My intent was to just scare him off, but unfortunately the kid stopped short, I ran into him, he tripped an broke his arm – and off to jail I went. Never mind that it was unintentional – I am now have a felony conviction for PC 245(a)1 (ADW) in the State of California. My attorney informed me I was lucky, as the DA in this county (a militant lesbian who believes that males are responsible for all violence in society) was pushing for a felony battery charge, which would have been a mandatory 2-year prison sentence and a "strike". The response of another attorney who I consulted for an appeal told me: "Two generations ago you would have been viewed as a good samaritan. One generation ago you would have been charged with a misdemeanor and placed on probation. Nowadays you're a criminal if you get involved". And you wonder why people don't get involved?
After I read what I posted, I realized that there are a number of typos and spelling errors. I apologize for not properly spell-checking my post, but even writing about this experience gets me so personally agitated that I can't see straight. I have always viewed myself as a conscienscious citizen (military vet, college grad, small business owner). Now I have lost the right to vote, the right to own a personal firearm, I can get pulled out of my car and cuffed for routine traffic stops, and my employment options are limited. Is it right that people would stand around and let an innocent child get killed? Absolutely not – but this is California. Enforcement of the law is totally arbitrary and capricious, more subject to the whims of political correctness than any semblance of reason. I hope that makes sense…
Anthony, I certainly understand your position. You were railroaded, big time.
I don't think, though, that five people would get such treatment (especially given that one of them is the fire chief). I just don't see any good reason they would stand there for seven minutes and not at least try to use their car to threaten him, or have someone charge him and knock him away from the kid so one of them could get the kid away.
I'm not saying they had to knock the guy out. They just had to knock him away from the kid.
Jimmie, with all due respect, you may be underestimating the influence of petty politicians with an agenda. Our county's DA (and district attorneys ARE politicans, just as judges are) was a regular participant in the county seat's annual Gay Pride parade, an advocate in her own right for various LGBT issues, and a crusader against "domestic violence", and is known to have an anti-male bent. The bizarre thing about this is that after my initial arrest, booking, and release from jail, I was notified by the DA's office that the assistant DA originally reviewed the case and determined that NO charges would be filed, THEN two weeks after that I was again contacted by the DA's office and informed that the book was going to be thrown at me. The lawyer "recommended" to me (take note, do your own research in the future if you ever need a criminal defense attorney) basically laid down and died on a case that other attorneys considered a "wobbler", even when the most outrageous, contradictory arguments were made by the perps-turned-victims (one of the other punks who beat feet as soon as I showed up claimed he saw me "punch" his buddy "for no reason at all" and that he "flew about 100 feet"). Mama, who was nowhere around when her little JD was throwing rocks, suddenly claimed to be present and witnessed the whole thing. The prosecutor trying the case was so obviously coaching everyone else that even the judge admonished the witnesses for getting "a bit ridiculous" in their claims. Still, my attorney (who I have reason to believe travels in the same social circles as the DA) told me to accept a guilty plea and a felony conviction, and hope for probation instead of more jail time. I should have pursued the matter, but being financially stressed at the time (I was a defendant in a rather lengthy civil suit by a known serial litigant, which I eventually won) I didn't have the resources to pursue it. Based on my experience in both civil and criminal courts, the entire judicial system in the State of California is run by and for the benefit of sociopaths and the mentally unbalanced. As callous as it may seem, I don't see why any sane, rational human being one should risk going through legal hell (as well as possible incarceration and loss of one's civil liberties) unless they or an immediate family member are in mortal danger. IMHO, the official state motto should be changed to the Latin version of "no good deed goes unpunished"…
I have to agree with Anthony on this one…I lived in Northern CA for 10 years…the police, and all the pols there are very liberal. Being a fireman makes no difference either & I'll tell you why in minute.
Sometime in the 80's, my cousin witnessed a crime outside of his stereo shop (in Houston, TX). A 19-yr old boy had stolen a lady's purse outside of the grocery store next to my cousin's shop & she ran in to his shop screaming about it. My cousin grabbed his gun & ran out in time to see the kid force another elderly man out of his car & was attempting to escape. My cousin ran up to the car pointing the gun telling the kid to stop, which he did for a second but then, hit the gas again, bumping my cousin up onto the hood of the car. He rolled off onto the driver's side, landed on his feet & shot the kid in the head through the driver-side window. (He died.) Now, even with the liberal defense of life & property type laws we have in Texas, this was no cut & dry case. This was before conceal/carry laws were in effect. My cousin had a right to have a gun on his property – the stereo shop, but not sure that same protection is extended to the grocery store parking lot. He did witness the felony crimes, but he also did shoot the kid while he was trying to escape. A grand jury decided not to charge him for anything. I believe they put it (loosely) under self-defense since the kid did intentionally hit him w/ the vehicle at a very low speed. They could have charged him with something; a number of things actually if the prosecutor wanted to push the issue. But this is TX & at the time, even an over-zealous prosecutor would not have found a jury to convict him.
Now, I told you that story to tell you this one….
When I first moved to CA in 96, a case very similar to my cousin's happened at a mall near where I lived. A young man had robbed a store in the mall at gunpoint & was chased out of the store by an off duty fireman. There was a tussle of some sort & the off-duty fireman ended up shooting & killing the ARMED robber. He went to jail….for years….more than 5 years if I remember correctly. Because the ARMED robber was in the process of escaping when the fireman killed him.
That was a real eye-opener to me. As was the fact that most Californian's I talked to seemed to be indifferent to the plight of this fireman. A man with no criminal record, with a family, gets sent to jail for stopping a violent felon in the act of committing a crime. People's attitudes from “well, if he wasn't guilty, they wouldn't have been able to convict him.” on up to a general attitude that the only REAL criminals are the people who carry guns for personal protection. Period. There are no other criminals…..only poor, misunderstood and/or uneducated minority who simply rob stores in order to feed their families….or something egregiously stupid like that.
Needless to say, I packed all of my weaponry away whenever these people came over to visit….they would probably have turned me in.
Guys, I promise you I'm not underestimating local politicians. I entirely see that you were railroaded, Anthony, and I honestly wish that there was a remedy for you.
I am saying that the life of a two year-old child is worth more to me, even if the child isn't mine, than my having a felony conviction. If it comes up in a job interview I will simply tell the interviewer, "Sir, I was convicted of felony assault and battery. It happened when I tacked a man who was stomping the life out of a baby. The baby lived."
If they still don't want to hire me, well okay fine. I'll live with it.
I suspect that you're both of the same mind as I am on this.
Yes, I am, but I was taught that by my dad. Not everyone is. You are assuming that the correct reaction (protecting the baby with all your might, forsaking your own life to save another) is obvious & common sense rather than something that is taught.
Sure, both Anthony's story and mine are purely anecdotal. But it shows the kind of poisoned environment where good is called bad and bad is called good. Basically, pacifism & liberalism run amok. To quote the homicide detective in the story, "If they were physically able, you have to take a look at whether they were psychologically prepared to intervene." No, obviously they weren't psychologically prepared. If you had been taught your whole life that there are no evil people and that violence doesn't solve anything/violence begets violence and that all personal differences can be mitigated through dialogue, you would not be psychologically prepared either. I'm not saying what these people did was right. I'm just saying that it is very believable that they don't even know why what they did or didn't do was so wrong. It is not common sense.
Lori does a good job in summing up the situation here. We are dealing with a world of perceptions that are often colored by the notions of people whose view of the world is very much different from the 3 of us. As one of the probation officers told me "Those people in the parking lot didn't see a citizen trying to stop a crime. They didn't read your mind and see that you were only trying to scare the kid away. All they saw was a big, angry man chasing a frightened teenager, and they drew their conclusions from there". In the case of the kid beaten in Turlock, let's say some hero intervened, got into a punching match with the kid lying on the ground, THEN the cops rolled up. Do you think that people are going to immediately differentiate the good guy from the bad guy? Cop is most likely to shoot either one of you.
Please keep in mind that I'm not advocating just doing nothing. I may have made that decision to take on the man myself. However, that decision would have also been with the knowledge that if LE or witnesses had a slightly different interpretation of the events, and I was charged with provoking the attack, in my situation as a "violent felon" with a prior conviction, I would have been looking at 3-5 years in state prison and a STRIKE on my record, and NOT the one with the guys locked up for writing bad checks. That's the way the system works these days…
Lori, I don't believe that anyone needs to be "psychologically prepared to intervene". That stinks of rationalization.
We're talking about another human life here. it's not as if any of those folks had to beat the guy down or kill him. They simply had to get him a couple feet from the child so someone else could grab the kid and take him to safety. Does that really require some sort of psychological preparation?
Not in my mind, it doesn't. I just can't comprehend the notion that it does. It's like reading War and Peace translated from English to Sanskrit to Pig Latin to Japanese, then drenched in coffee. It's not even recognizeable to me as a rational human thought.
However, assuming that you do need psychological preparation to save a human life, how in the world does one become the chief of a fire department without receiving such preparation? One of those five people actually did have professional training in emergency and crisis response and managing a dangerous scene. What's his excuse?
I cannot explain the fireman….that really makes no sense why he didn't do something. But, I think when you have 5 or 6 adults, 3 grown men among them, who failed to respond, the explanation has to go beyond lacking common sense or mere self-preservation. How did they get this way?
By mental preparation, I don't mean having previous practice taking down maniac killers. Your own "preparation" is so ingrained that you dub it “common sense". What you consider “common sense” is your ability to recognize evil & a moral obligation to help. Because you have this, you mentally prepare yourself to be ready for action should you witness a similar event. Someone probably taught you that…by word & deed.
I was struck by this story and by your sad stories, Lori and Anthony, and have considered for the last 24 hours what I would have done in a similar dilemma.
I feel certain that in the case of Axel Casian, I would have had someone call 911 and called the men into action with me to intervene. But I have to think that the more dangerous the assailant appeared, the less likely I'd be to take action. Which begs the question, how much risk can we all be expected to take on to save someone else?
I think we all agree that in this case of three grown men all able to intervene and one unarmed man stomping a child to death, the risks are so low that we can reasonably expect them to do something.
But what if there was only one bystander – a man or even a woman or a teenager? Should they be expected to physically get between the child and his attacker? Is it fair to essentially make risking your life for someone else what is expected of a moral person?
As mentioned, this does not seem to apply to the Axel Casian case, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on where this line should be drawn. Essentially: Exactly when does our right to mind our own business and guard our own life lose legitimacy to the moral responsibility to help those in need?
Hey, Folks, found you via Michelle Malkin ………………….. here's my take.
We lived in Monterrey, Mexico, for 2.5 years – one day {pre-9/11}, there were municipal water issues I called about – they sent out a crew & a supervisor who spoke some English – while I was explaining to the supervisor the problem, one of the crew started throwing fist-sized rocks at a stray cat & her kittens I had been feeding – I SCREAMED "NO!" – they turned, looked at me as if I'd sprouted a second head, but stopped. {Cats are NOT valued in Mexico.}
Reason I noted it was pre-9/11 is that, after Todd Beamer & Co. were heard to say "Let's Roll!", I would've thought that ALL Americans, no matter where one lives, would by God do their damnedest to ensure that innocents aren't harmed, or to step in harm is happening. Seems it all boils down to an apathy/'not my problem' mindset ……………………. I just pray little Axel is at peace ………………..
Semper Fi'
DM
Mari, I'd like to tackle that question a bit later this evening, when I have some time to raelly sit down and write on it. I think it's a raelly good question, perhaps the most imrpotant question to consider if we think about what each of us would do if someone needed our help.
Diamond Mair – Welcome! I hope you find the place worth revisiting.
I didn't realize that the beating had occurred over 7 minutes and that does make the bystanders' inaction difficult to fathom, but I can understand it on another level. Maybe relatives of the man and boy would have jumped in but when it comes to a violent total stranger who could be on drugs, insane, diseased, who knows what — the impulse is more complicated. I have been insulted, spat on, screamed at over the years by strangers I was trying to help in some small or another and the inclination is diminishing, I can feel it. I ran down the middle of First Avenue a few weeks ago after a dog that had gotten away from its owner, shouting all the while for some help from the dozens and dozens of people all around and no one did a thing. (side note: he ran onto the Queensboro Bridge and got away and I was heartsick until I found out the next day that he had been rescued.) I thought about the impluse to "save" something or someone afterward and I realized that not everyone has it in them. MOST people are cowards.
I might be more understanding if it's one person watching someone doing a crime – especially if he is armed. But for 5 adults watch a little child get beat to death…that is coward and heartless. Calling the police didn't save the life of this poor child. Getting in front of that @#!@$! would. There was five minds that could have come up with a safe way to approach this @#$!@%!
I guess you can pick and choose when you should mind your own business. But when it comes to a child…I think you should do anything to protect that innocent little life.
For those 5 witnesses…I hope you can live with yourself. You will always play over and over in your mind the cry and screaming for help. It will be one story you can tell… "I watched a little innocent 2 year old get beat to death and I did nothing because I was a heartless coward"
This kind of behavior does seem to be getting worse. The great cities have had it for generations, but it is spreading. I do believe that the mantra/training of "don't get hurt, call 9-1-1 and let the professionals handle it’ is responsible. When good citizens do step up and defend others you will have a "police spokesmen" thank the person and then tell you "don't get hurt, call 9-1-1 and let the professionals handle it". It is the wimpization of our culture. TV police shows are particularly bad at that. I doubt any one this list would stand around or you would be too embarrassed to read it. So be the first to charge in. Even the most timid will follow a leader. Any of you from the military have seen it. If you don’t have a gun use a knife, tire iron, fists, feet or teeth.
And I am most thankful to live in Arizona where open carry is allowed and CCW are
Shall Issue
I too was arrested for using force to stop a criminal…in my case, the criminal that attacked me. Still, I have to say that if I saw someone stomping a toddler, they could damn well execute me by firing squad, I don't care, I will put the guy doing the stomping down. He will not be getting up under his own power. (Not meant to sound tough…I'm nerdier than Clark Howard.)
That said, I don't know who these people were. If they were elderly or disabled, I don't suppose they would have been able to do very much, particularly if the guy committing this murder was large and determined.
All in all, our society has been wussified into sheeplike complacency. The reason we have some much BS to put up with is because we put up with BS.
I think all of the discussion here is good but it misses a point about humans that has been reasonably well-established in many ways. Just a handful of people in 100 will react to even save themselves in a situation with many determinate factors. For example, aircrews know that when a plane is on fire on the ground that a large number of people will attempt to open an overhead bin and retrieve their carry on before exiting. Survivors of these situations talk about horrible quilt because in the melee they were the few who could clearly see what needed to be done and did it.
From personal experience I know that I'm one of those few people who act immediately in these situations but I really believe it has no more to do with bravery or judgment than it does with eye color, I was just born with that in me. In this case my size and strength would probably not have made me capable of helping this boy but I would have attacked that man, probably getting badly hurt in the process.
To expect to have somebody on the scene with those traits, out of 5, is simply expecting too much of humans. If there had been a crowd of 100 people there would have been several people on top of that situation immediately.
The military is built around finding those few individuals and training everyone else to follow them. This is old ground in human studies.
I have another take on a situation.
I am a small business owner and I was told this story by an officer I used to eat lunch with. Down the street from my business there was a very elderly woman walking on the sidewalk. Some guy ran up and tried to snatch her purse and she held onto it for dear life. There was a contractor working on the gutters of a three family house a few hundred feet away. He saw what was happening and slid down his ladder, ran up behind the perp and hit him on the head hard enough to knock him out/ then called the police on his cell. When the officer surveyed the scene it was written up that the elderly woman hit the perp with her umbrella hard enough to knock him down where he hit his head on the sidewalk and that knocked him out. The only mention of the contractor was that he was a witness to that fact. The perp went to jail for assaulting an elderly woman and justice was served.
I think that the people that stood around observing what was happening should be charged equally along with the father.
This story brings me to tears, and I think about that little boy everyday. My heart just breaks for the rest of his family.
I am shocked and stunned that no one did anything. Try and maybe fail, but at least try.
They will have to live with the guilt and shame of their inactions the rest of their lives.
Don't be so quick to judge people. Everyone would like to believe that they would have intervened, but until you are in a situation like that, you don't know how you'd react. And the unfortunate reality is no child that size could survive a head injury from being thrown to the ground, and he was probably dead after the first blow. So by the time anyone registered what was happening and tried to intervene, it still would have been too late.
Amy, I'm sorry but yes, I do. I said exactly that in my post. I do know that I would not stand there for seven minutes and let someone beat a kid to death. I know that better than I know my name.
It is true that he might have been dead from the initial throw to the ground. However, we will never know largely because those people cowered. We can be quite sure, though, that the initial throw plus a hundred or so blows from a boot killed him.
It's a few weeks old now, but I can't help continue thinking about this. Brings me to tears dammit.
That @#$ing chicken-s**t fire chief doesn't deserve to wear a badge. He doesn't deserve to be in that position. The rest of those adults should rightly be tormented about their decision to do nothing. Sickening horrific case.
I completely agree with you. I work for an attorney, so I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN! I would have taken the felony for the baby beaten to death, and would have hoped a good lawyer came to my defense and fight for what was right. I hate California laws, I hate the system; maybe if more cops starting shooting the "real bad, evil" trash that they come upon, our state would be better and laws would have to change. I am sitting here with my 2-year old writing this, and hope Axel did not feel any pain. I still can't believe this happened…..
Hey, maybe if enough people got together to push for a "law" that a cop or "bystander" can intervene in ANY way possible if an adult was beating/attacking a child/toddler/infant and not be "sued, arrested,etc" it would pass? I would be first in line to get the child's name tattooed on me, so everytime I went into a courtroom, people would remember how 5 adults did nothing…….I'm sorry, but as a mother I would have put myself in between, and took my chances. Too many parents abuse thier kids…just read in online, it is a sick world…
Yes, I agree with people that you can't always intervene. Two of these people were elderly, and one was a very young woman. I'm sure they were scared and shocked! Had all of them been big burly men, I';m sure they WOULD have tried to jump on him and restrain him. Also, from police reports of blood in the car, I think the poor baby was aready deceased. 911 calls were made and the 23 year old's fiancee did try and stop him.
OMG>.. I can't believe what I am reading from Anthony and Lori!! YOU DEFINITELY ARE CALIFORNIANS!! no doubt..
that's the exact self-absorbed attitude and bad fame you give Californians. That's what the criticism has been all about in the first place and here you two are re-inforcing truth to it with your pathetic cry-like-a-lil-b*tch stories. OH pitty me i have a felony on my record boo hoo..
You piece of whining sh*t .. we're talking about a 2 year old defenseless child here!! get your head out of the gutter and stop thinking about you and what would happen to yoU!
I don't think the McKain family sat there and did nothing because they were afraid getting a felony or going to jail. They have said it themselves.. "we would have loved to split his head open too but we didn't have anything to do it with" … that was their statement. AND I COULDN"T aGREE MORE>. they sure didn't have any brains to do it with!!! FIVE F*CKEN CHickEN SH*Ts couldn't use their f*cken heads and try to strike and argument with the crazy sob so that someone else could grab the child!!!?!?!?!?
Do you know the child was alive the whole time until he arrived at the hospital where minutes later he was pronounced dead?
You whining little pricks are an embarassment.. oh u poor anthony how could we even think of you helping that poor boy out.. o way u'll get another felony God forbid this child's life over your felony.