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> <channel><title>Comments on: While we Fiddle, Burma Dies.</title> <atom:link href="http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/</link> <description>Delivering the Best of the New Media Since 2004.</description> <lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 22:10:31 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator> <item><title>By: Jimmie</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-555444</link> <dc:creator>Jimmie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 04:51:31 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=3388#comment-555444</guid> <description>fostert, thank you for doing that research.I find most regrettable that my basic assumption that an EU sanction would be fundamentally toothless would be ultimately correct. I very much would like to be wrong about Europe some day, but based on their history of talking much and doing little, I don&#039;t expect to be.It&#039;s time to get our President off his duff and into some real action. I&#039;m afraid that when he does, he&#039;ll bear the brunt of the criticism for his &quot;unilateral&quot; wild ways, but if it puts any pressure at all on the junta, I think he&#039;ll take the slings and arrows.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fostert, thank you for doing that research.</p><p>I find most regrettable that my basic assumption that an EU sanction would be fundamentally toothless would be ultimately correct. I very much would like to be wrong about Europe some day, but based on their history of talking much and doing little, I don&#8217;t expect to be.</p><p>It&#8217;s time to get our President off his duff and into some real action. I&#8217;m afraid that when he does, he&#8217;ll bear the brunt of the criticism for his &#8220;unilateral&#8221; wild ways, but if it puts any pressure at all on the junta, I think he&#8217;ll take the slings and arrows.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: fostert</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-554075</link> <dc:creator>fostert</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 21:30:18 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=3388#comment-554075</guid> <description>Update:  So, I&#039;ve learned a little more about the details of the EU sanctions.  They are appalling, but not really surprising.  The sanctions exempt the natural gas industry, which accounts for the vast majority of foreign revenues for the Myanmar junta.  That alone would make the sanctions extremely ineffective.  But it gets worse: the sanctions specifically target the gem trade.  Now when it comes to black markets, the Burmese gem trade ranks as the blackest of black.  As it stands today, nearly all of the Burmese gemstones sold today are sold in underground markets in Bangkok before entering the &#039;legitimate&#039; world.  And they are smuggled in to avoid already existing sanctions.  On the Burma side, you have Burmese military officers running illegal mines using slave labor.  On the Thai side, you have the Teochew Chinese mafia in Bangkok (you&#039;ll see alternate spellings on these people- Roman letters don&#039;t really convey the proper pronunciation).  Now, one might think that the Burmese military might be the more ruthless of the two, but one would be very wrong to think that.  Nobody messes with the Teochew and their ex-Khmer Rouge thugs.  Not even the King of Thailand will go there.  In fact, even the Russian mafias steer clear of the the Teochew.  They run the Thai and Burmese economies.  If one were to try to devise a sanction scheme to be less effective, one would most certainly fail.So Jimmie, I will concede that the Europeans are doing nothing.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Update:  So, I&#8217;ve learned a little more about the details of the EU sanctions.  They are appalling, but not really surprising.  The sanctions exempt the natural gas industry, which accounts for the vast majority of foreign revenues for the Myanmar junta.  That alone would make the sanctions extremely ineffective.  But it gets worse: the sanctions specifically target the gem trade.  Now when it comes to black markets, the Burmese gem trade ranks as the blackest of black.  As it stands today, nearly all of the Burmese gemstones sold today are sold in underground markets in Bangkok before entering the &#8216;legitimate&#8217; world.  And they are smuggled in to avoid already existing sanctions.  On the Burma side, you have Burmese military officers running illegal mines using slave labor.  On the Thai side, you have the Teochew Chinese mafia in Bangkok (you&#8217;ll see alternate spellings on these people- Roman letters don&#8217;t really convey the proper pronunciation).  Now, one might think that the Burmese military might be the more ruthless of the two, but one would be very wrong to think that.  Nobody messes with the Teochew and their ex-Khmer Rouge thugs.  Not even the King of Thailand will go there.  In fact, even the Russian mafias steer clear of the the Teochew.  They run the Thai and Burmese economies.  If one were to try to devise a sanction scheme to be less effective, one would most certainly fail.</p><p>So Jimmie, I will concede that the Europeans are doing nothing.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: fostert</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-552888</link> <dc:creator>fostert</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 02:44:35 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=3388#comment-552888</guid> <description>In your post you said this:&quot;China and India are prominent trading partners with Burma. I’m thinking that with as much business as we send those two nations, there’s some real way we can press them to cut off the cash flow.&quot;I take this to mean that you believe that cutting off the cash flow from India and China to the Burmese junta would be a good thing.  So why is cutting off the larger cash flow from Thailand bad?  And what I&#039;m proposing is not really a sanctions regime.  It doesn&#039;t require the cooperation of anyone but Chevron- Texaco.  Unanimity is guaranteed because there is only a single entity.  And such an action would hardly be illegal.  The government does have the right to regulate commerce, and laws barring businesses from operating in hostile regimes are common.  In fact, there already are laws banning US companies from doing business with Burma.  It&#039;s just that Chevron- Texaco is exempt from those laws.  Bush can sign an executive order removing their exemption from existing law.  Now it would violate Burmese law, but I&#039;m not too concerned about that.  After all, the junta itself is illegal.  The main problem with the proposal is that China will build a pipeline to China and buy the gas.    They are already planning such a pipeline, but it will take 5 years to build.  And it will no doubt be built by slaves supplied by the Burmese junta.  That&#039;s certainly a bad thing, but China will build its pipeline regardless of whether the Thailand pipeline operates or not.  Short of going to war with China, there&#039;s nothing we can do to stop that pipeline.  The other problem is that we must compensate Thailand for their losses, but that won&#039;t cost too much.  About a week&#039;s worth of Iraq expenses should cover it.  It&#039;s not a perfect plan, but it might work.  And it will certainly work better than trying to pressure India and China to do what we are unwilling to do ourselves.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your post you said this:</p><p>&#8220;China and India are prominent trading partners with Burma. I’m thinking that with as much business as we send those two nations, there’s some real way we can press them to cut off the cash flow.&#8221;</p><p>I take this to mean that you believe that cutting off the cash flow from India and China to the Burmese junta would be a good thing.  So why is cutting off the larger cash flow from Thailand bad?  And what I&#8217;m proposing is not really a sanctions regime.  It doesn&#8217;t require the cooperation of anyone but Chevron- Texaco.  Unanimity is guaranteed because there is only a single entity.  And such an action would hardly be illegal.  The government does have the right to regulate commerce, and laws barring businesses from operating in hostile regimes are common.  In fact, there already are laws banning US companies from doing business with Burma.  It&#8217;s just that Chevron- Texaco is exempt from those laws.  Bush can sign an executive order removing their exemption from existing law.  Now it would violate Burmese law, but I&#8217;m not too concerned about that.  After all, the junta itself is illegal.  The main problem with the proposal is that China will build a pipeline to China and buy the gas.    They are already planning such a pipeline, but it will take 5 years to build.  And it will no doubt be built by slaves supplied by the Burmese junta.  That&#8217;s certainly a bad thing, but China will build its pipeline regardless of whether the Thailand pipeline operates or not.  Short of going to war with China, there&#8217;s nothing we can do to stop that pipeline.  The other problem is that we must compensate Thailand for their losses, but that won&#8217;t cost too much.  About a week&#8217;s worth of Iraq expenses should cover it.  It&#8217;s not a perfect plan, but it might work.  And it will certainly work better than trying to pressure India and China to do what we are unwilling to do ourselves.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Jimmie</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-552851</link> <dc:creator>Jimmie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 01:26:42 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=3388#comment-552851</guid> <description>Okay, fostert, let&#039;s assume that President Bush does something patently illegal and stops Chevron-Texaco from using the pipeline. And let&#039;s also assume that you guys on the left don&#039;t immediately start screaming &quot;fascism&quot; or &quot;police state&quot; - something I&#039;m sure will happen immediately. That pipeline hardly affects us here. It does, in fact, affect China greatly as well as several European nations, who rely on Burmese gas more than we. Once having taken this unilateral action (and are we now going with the &quot;unilateral is good&quot; side of things here? Be sure to let us know beforehand if that&#039;s okay), then what?The junta will still be killing Burmese.Put in place all the sanctions you want. They won&#039;t work. They&#039;ve never worked. Sanctions fail because you can &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; get unanimity. There will always be some nation with deep pockets willing to violate the sanctions and the whole thing just serves to further brutalize the people. Google &quot;Oil for Food&quot; for a recent example.But, you&#039;re putting the cart before the horse. I firmly believe that we, the people, should insist that our corporations not deal with brutal regimes no matter what favorable deals they strike. That&#039;s our job, though, not that of the government. That&#039;s a problem we can certainly tackle once the junta stops dragging people out of their beds in the middle of the night and executing them. The problem is immediate.It did make me laugh, though, that you put the words &quot;European actions&quot; together, as if the Europeans had actually done anything. They haven&#039;t. They&#039;ve agreed to think about doing something. That&#039;s not action. That&#039;s just a way that folks who like to talk about human rights make themselves feel better without taking any action at all.Kind of like a &quot;Free Tibet&quot; bumper sticker on the back of a car of someone who thinks that liberating 24 million Iraqis was an unforgivable sin.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, fostert, let&#8217;s assume that President Bush does something patently illegal and stops Chevron-Texaco from using the pipeline. And let&#8217;s also assume that you guys on the left don&#8217;t immediately start screaming &#8220;fascism&#8221; or &#8220;police state&#8221; &#8211; something I&#8217;m sure will happen immediately. That pipeline hardly affects us here. It does, in fact, affect China greatly as well as several European nations, who rely on Burmese gas more than we. Once having taken this unilateral action (and are we now going with the &#8220;unilateral is good&#8221; side of things here? Be sure to let us know beforehand if that&#8217;s okay), then what?</p><p>The junta will still be killing Burmese.</p><p>Put in place all the sanctions you want. They won&#8217;t work. They&#8217;ve never worked. Sanctions fail because you can <i>never</i> get unanimity. There will always be some nation with deep pockets willing to violate the sanctions and the whole thing just serves to further brutalize the people. Google &#8220;Oil for Food&#8221; for a recent example.</p><p>But, you&#8217;re putting the cart before the horse. I firmly believe that we, the people, should insist that our corporations not deal with brutal regimes no matter what favorable deals they strike. That&#8217;s our job, though, not that of the government. That&#8217;s a problem we can certainly tackle once the junta stops dragging people out of their beds in the middle of the night and executing them. The problem is immediate.</p><p>It did make me laugh, though, that you put the words &#8220;European actions&#8221; together, as if the Europeans had actually done anything. They haven&#8217;t. They&#8217;ve agreed to think about doing something. That&#8217;s not action. That&#8217;s just a way that folks who like to talk about human rights make themselves feel better without taking any action at all.</p><p>Kind of like a &#8220;Free Tibet&#8221; bumper sticker on the back of a car of someone who thinks that liberating 24 million Iraqis was an unforgivable sin.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: fostert</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-552827</link> <dc:creator>fostert</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 00:26:55 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=3388#comment-552827</guid> <description>Yes, the European actions probably won&#039;t be very effective.  But they will be more effective than doing nothing, which is what the US has done so far.  And the US actually has more leverage than Europe.  Contrary to recent accounts, it is actually Thailand that does the most business with Burma.  The majority of Burma&#039;s foreign revenues comes from a single source: natural gas transported to Thailand via the Myanmar-Thailand pipeline.  That is the pipeline operated by Chevron- Texaco, which claims to be an American company.  If that pipeline were shut down, the Burmese economy would collapse.  Of course, the pipeline is also crucial to the Thai economy, so they won&#039;t act alone.  But if the US were to guarantee another source of natural gas for Thailand, it could crush the Burmese junta without harming Thailand.  And all the US needs to do would be to get Chevron- Texaco to shut down the pipeline.  But all Bush wants to do is talk about Burma.  And he will never take an action that would harm a US energy company.  Even if that company is responsible for sustaining the Burmese junta and complicit in genocide and slavery.  Hopefully, we can elect a president who doesn&#039;t owe his life to the energy industry and we can finally do something about Burma.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the European actions probably won&#8217;t be very effective.  But they will be more effective than doing nothing, which is what the US has done so far.  And the US actually has more leverage than Europe.  Contrary to recent accounts, it is actually Thailand that does the most business with Burma.  The majority of Burma&#8217;s foreign revenues comes from a single source: natural gas transported to Thailand via the Myanmar-Thailand pipeline.  That is the pipeline operated by Chevron- Texaco, which claims to be an American company.  If that pipeline were shut down, the Burmese economy would collapse.  Of course, the pipeline is also crucial to the Thai economy, so they won&#8217;t act alone.  But if the US were to guarantee another source of natural gas for Thailand, it could crush the Burmese junta without harming Thailand.  And all the US needs to do would be to get Chevron- Texaco to shut down the pipeline.  But all Bush wants to do is talk about Burma.  And he will never take an action that would harm a US energy company.  Even if that company is responsible for sustaining the Burmese junta and complicit in genocide and slavery.  Hopefully, we can elect a president who doesn&#8217;t owe his life to the energy industry and we can finally do something about Burma.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Jimmie</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-552777</link> <dc:creator>Jimmie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 22:06:29 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=3388#comment-552777</guid> <description>The problem with Europe&#039;s sanctions are threefold.1) They&#039;re sanctions, which never, ever work.
2) They&#039;ve agreed &quot;in principle&quot;, which means that they&#039;ll probably enact sanctions at some point soon, but haven&#039;t actually done it yet.
2) They don&#039;t prevent the most marketable commodity Burma has: oil.And no European leader has yet stepped out onto the world stage and taken the junta killers to task.In fact, Javier Solana was patting the EU on the back for &quot;passing serious messages&quot; to India and China.Yep. Serious messages. That&#039;s going to get monks out of torture prisons.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with Europe&#8217;s sanctions are threefold.</p><p>1) They&#8217;re sanctions, which never, ever work.<br
/> 2) They&#8217;ve agreed &#8220;in principle&#8221;, which means that they&#8217;ll probably enact sanctions at some point soon, but haven&#8217;t actually done it yet.<br
/> 2) They don&#8217;t prevent the most marketable commodity Burma has: oil.</p><p>And no European leader has yet stepped out onto the world stage and taken the junta killers to task.</p><p>In fact, Javier Solana was patting the EU on the back for &#8220;passing serious messages&#8221; to India and China.</p><p>Yep. Serious messages. That&#8217;s going to get monks out of torture prisons.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: fostert</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-552745</link> <dc:creator>fostert</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:02:34 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=3388#comment-552745</guid> <description>By the way, the European Union has ended its silence and agreed to impose new sanctions on Burma.  The new sanctions are targeted to put pressure on India and China.  The question is: will Bush follow Europe&#039;s lead?http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Myanmar_junta_warns_of_more_arrests_10032007.html</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, the European Union has ended its silence and agreed to impose new sanctions on Burma.  The new sanctions are targeted to put pressure on India and China.  The question is: will Bush follow Europe&#8217;s lead?</p><p><a
href="http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Myanmar_junta_warns_of_more_arrests_10032007.html" rel="nofollow">http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Myanmar_junta_warns_of_more_arrests_10032007.html</a></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: fostert</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2007/10/03/while-we-fiddle-burma-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-552737</link> <dc:creator>fostert</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:25:26 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.sundriesshack.com/?p=3388#comment-552737</guid> <description>Oops, my bad.  Yangon was founded as Dagon and renamed Yangon in 1753.  The British then renamed it &quot;Rangoon&quot;, which is a particularly annoying rename since the Burmese have trouble pronouncing it.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, my bad.  Yangon was founded as Dagon and renamed Yangon in 1753.  The British then renamed it &#8220;Rangoon&#8221;, which is a particularly annoying rename since the Burmese have trouble pronouncing it.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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