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> <channel><title>Comments on: No Quarter</title> <atom:link href="http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/</link> <description>Delivering the Best of the New Media Since 2004.</description> <lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 02:51:03 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator> <item><title>By: Leaning Straight Up</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/comment-page-1/#comment-233604</link> <dc:creator>Leaning Straight Up</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:37:02 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://sundriesshack.com/?p=2501#comment-233604</guid> <description>&lt;strong&gt;The Missing Soldiers:  The reactions&lt;/strong&gt;I want to say coming out of the chute on this that I am very heartsick for the families of the latest two soldiers killed in Iraq.&#160; I won&#8217;t dwell on their brutal deaths, enough other people are doing that.  What I am concerned about is the r...</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The Missing Soldiers:  The reactions</strong></p><p>I want to say coming out of the chute on this that I am very heartsick for the families of the latest two soldiers killed in Iraq.&nbsp; I won&#8217;t dwell on their brutal deaths, enough other people are doing that.  What I am concerned about is the r&#8230;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Tom</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/comment-page-1/#comment-233606</link> <dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:00:45 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://sundriesshack.com/?p=2501#comment-233606</guid> <description>When I wrote of inflaming the enemy, I did not mean to imply that our enemies have worsened their tactics as a result of anything we may have done.  They certainly have not.  It&#039;s just that there are more of them doing it.  Two years ago the Army estimated the size of the insurgency at 2000-3000.  Now it&#039;s ten times that size, by their estimate.  Obviously, a lot of people joined that insurgency or it would not have grown so much.  When we fail to uphold humane standards of warfare, we make the terrorists&#039; recruiting job much easier.  People are far more willing to drop their standards of humanity when they see that all sides have already done so.  But that&#039;s just the effects on the general public.  The direct victims of our indiscretions are even more inflamed.  Of the thousands we tortured and released, I&#039;d guess at least a thousand of them our now fighting our troops.  No doubt many of them have already claimed their revenge. </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I wrote of inflaming the enemy, I did not mean to imply that our enemies have worsened their tactics as a result of anything we may have done.  They certainly have not.  It&#039;s just that there are more of them doing it.  Two years ago the Army estimated the size of the insurgency at 2000-3000.  Now it&#039;s ten times that size, by their estimate.  Obviously, a lot of people joined that insurgency or it would not have grown so much.  When we fail to uphold humane standards of warfare, we make the terrorists&#039; recruiting job much easier.  People are far more willing to drop their standards of humanity when they see that all sides have already done so.  But that&#039;s just the effects on the general public.  The direct victims of our indiscretions are even more inflamed.  Of the thousands we tortured and released, I&#039;d guess at least a thousand of them our now fighting our troops.  No doubt many of them have already claimed their revenge.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Jimmie</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/comment-page-1/#comment-233601</link> <dc:creator>Jimmie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:26:31 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://sundriesshack.com/?p=2501#comment-233601</guid> <description>Sure we have, and the GC isn&#039;t the point of my comment, though it&#039;s an easy distraction from the reality of the situation.
But as for your unease, I&#039;m guessing you didn&#039;t read far enough into your link. I quote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Even after effective occupation of territory, members of the armed forces who have not surrendered, organized resistance movements, and genuine national liberation movements may resist the occupation, but they must distinguish themselves from the civilian population, or at least carry their weapons openly during attacks and deployments. Any direct involvement by civilians in these hostilities would be unlawful.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
If you contend that the &quot;insurgents&quot; are a &lt;i&gt;levee en masse&lt;/i&gt; you &#039;ll have a hard time deying that they have not separated themselves from civilians. In fact, they have done just the opposite. </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure we have, and the GC isn&#039;t the point of my comment, though it&#039;s an easy distraction from the reality of the situation.</p><p>But as for your unease, I&#039;m guessing you didn&#039;t read far enough into your link. I quote:</p><blockquote><p> Even after effective occupation of territory, members of the armed forces who have not surrendered, organized resistance movements, and genuine national liberation movements may resist the occupation, but they must distinguish themselves from the civilian population, or at least carry their weapons openly during attacks and deployments. Any direct involvement by civilians in these hostilities would be unlawful.</p></blockquote><p>If you contend that the &quot;insurgents&quot; are a <i>levee en masse</i> you &#039;ll have a hard time deying that they have not separated themselves from civilians. In fact, they have done just the opposite.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Andy Vance</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/comment-page-1/#comment-233594</link> <dc:creator>Andy Vance</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:37:21 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://sundriesshack.com/?p=2501#comment-233594</guid> <description>Ah, I see. I could quibble over definitions - &quot;Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations&quot; - and the meaning of &quot;politics&quot; blah blah blah but we&#039;ve all been there and done that.
I tend to get a bit edgy at the sight of phrases like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/levee-en-masse.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;en masse&lt;/a&gt;. My bad. </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, I see. I could quibble over definitions &#8211; &quot;Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations&quot; &#8211; and the meaning of &quot;politics&quot; blah blah blah but we&#039;ve all been there and done that.</p><p>I tend to get a bit edgy at the sight of phrases like <a
href="http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/levee-en-masse.html" rel="nofollow">en masse</a>. My bad.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Jimmie</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/comment-page-1/#comment-233593</link> <dc:creator>Jimmie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:55:56 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://sundriesshack.com/?p=2501#comment-233593</guid> <description>Tom, I&#039;ll adress your point about inflaming our enemies in more detail shld you wish it but I&#039;ll make three quick points.  1) Our enemies targeted civilians and killed about 3000 of them. 2) Our enemies were beheading hostages &lt;i&gt;before&lt;/i&gt; any &quot;violations&quot; of the GC came to light.
How much more inflamed do you expect them to be?
I would argue that nothing we do can inflame our enemies further than they are already inflamed and I&#039;ve not seen a shred of evidence to say otherwise.
Andy - What I am referring to is our general gentility toward our enemies because of misguided political of humanitarian motives. We have refrained from attacking enemies in mosques, despite ample proof that they use them as weapon supply depots, ambush points, and sniper nests. We have chosen not to lay siege on terrorist strongholds for fear of causing injury to civilians in that same area who have chosen to remain there. We have allowed such murderers as Moqtada al-Sadr not only to live but to actively fight against us even though we know well who and where he is, and that his strength comes largely from his Iranian backing because we worry about inflaming the distinct minority of Iraqis.
Note, by the way, that I&#039;m not saying that the GC is null and void but that it is a &lt;i&gt;treaty&lt;/i&gt;. Treaties are only valid between signatories. I am also not saying that we shold not abide by the GC. I happen to believe that we are. I do believe, though, that in dealing with those who do not abide by the treaty, we err in using the GC as the sole guide of our behavior. What should guide our behavior in this war is what defeats the enemy quickly and decisively. </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, I&#039;ll adress your point about inflaming our enemies in more detail shld you wish it but I&#039;ll make three quick points.  1) Our enemies targeted civilians and killed about 3000 of them. 2) Our enemies were beheading hostages <i>before</i> any &quot;violations&quot; of the GC came to light.</p><p>How much more inflamed do you expect them to be?</p><p>I would argue that nothing we do can inflame our enemies further than they are already inflamed and I&#039;ve not seen a shred of evidence to say otherwise.</p><p>Andy &#8211; What I am referring to is our general gentility toward our enemies because of misguided political of humanitarian motives. We have refrained from attacking enemies in mosques, despite ample proof that they use them as weapon supply depots, ambush points, and sniper nests. We have chosen not to lay siege on terrorist strongholds for fear of causing injury to civilians in that same area who have chosen to remain there. We have allowed such murderers as Moqtada al-Sadr not only to live but to actively fight against us even though we know well who and where he is, and that his strength comes largely from his Iranian backing because we worry about inflaming the distinct minority of Iraqis.</p><p>Note, by the way, that I&#039;m not saying that the GC is null and void but that it is a <i>treaty</i>. Treaties are only valid between signatories. I am also not saying that we shold not abide by the GC. I happen to believe that we are. I do believe, though, that in dealing with those who do not abide by the treaty, we err in using the GC as the sole guide of our behavior. What should guide our behavior in this war is what defeats the enemy quickly and decisively.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Tom</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/comment-page-1/#comment-233592</link> <dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:25:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://sundriesshack.com/?p=2501#comment-233592</guid> <description>As you admit, that our enemies are not signatories to the Geneva Conventions is hardly a revelation.  My guess is that you didn&#039;t even need a reminder of that fact.  My take on the Geneva Conventions is that they need some updating for modern warfare.  There needs to be a more clear definition of whom it applies to.  However, that does not mean we should just ignore the Geneva Conventions because of their flaws.  If we are looking for some &#039;guiding light&#039; on how to deal with prisoners, it should be this:  we should engage in no practice that is likely to inflame our enemies should that practice see the light of day.  Our current &#039;interrogation techniques&#039; do not meet that standard, and Iraqi support for our troops has been the casualty.  Perhaps we have gained some valuable intellegence, but we have paid a very high price for it. </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you admit, that our enemies are not signatories to the Geneva Conventions is hardly a revelation.  My guess is that you didn&#039;t even need a reminder of that fact.  My take on the Geneva Conventions is that they need some updating for modern warfare.  There needs to be a more clear definition of whom it applies to.  However, that does not mean we should just ignore the Geneva Conventions because of their flaws.  If we are looking for some &#039;guiding light&#039; on how to deal with prisoners, it should be this:  we should engage in no practice that is likely to inflame our enemies should that practice see the light of day.  Our current &#039;interrogation techniques&#039; do not meet that standard, and Iraqi support for our troops has been the casualty.  Perhaps we have gained some valuable intellegence, but we have paid a very high price for it.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Andy Vance</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/comment-page-1/#comment-233591</link> <dc:creator>Andy Vance</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:21:34 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://sundriesshack.com/?p=2501#comment-233591</guid> <description>That doesn&#039;t make any sense, Jimmie. &lt;i&gt;Of course&lt;/i&gt; we&#039;d obliterate the Shura Council, etc. &lt;i&gt;if we only knew who they were&lt;/i&gt;. Mao&#039;s &quot;fish and the sea&quot; and all that.
What&#039;s the &quot;restraint&quot; you want removed? You seem to be implying that we should be, at mimimum, much less discriminate in picking targets. Or, to take that line of logic to it&#039;s extreme, we should be broadening the responsibility for the insurrection &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;beyond the insurgents.&lt;/a&gt;  But I don&#039;t want to put words in your mouth.
I also don&#039;t get the reasoning that says the Geneva Convention(s), or at least the idea, is null and void because of the terrorist&#039;s tactics. We&#039;re not trying to convince the &lt;i&gt;terrorists&lt;/i&gt; to behave humanely. We&#039;re trying to prove to a sceptical &lt;i&gt;Middle East public&lt;/i&gt; that &lt;i&gt;we&#039;re&lt;/i&gt; capable of behaving humanely, even in the face of brutality. </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That doesn&#039;t make any sense, Jimmie. <i>Of course</i> we&#039;d obliterate the Shura Council, etc. <i>if we only knew who they were</i>. Mao&#039;s &quot;fish and the sea&quot; and all that.</p><p>What&#039;s the &quot;restraint&quot; you want removed? You seem to be implying that we should be, at mimimum, much less discriminate in picking targets. Or, to take that line of logic to it&#039;s extreme, we should be broadening the responsibility for the insurrection <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment" rel="nofollow">beyond the insurgents.</a> But I don&#039;t want to put words in your mouth.</p><p>I also don&#039;t get the reasoning that says the Geneva Convention(s), or at least the idea, is null and void because of the terrorist&#039;s tactics. We&#039;re not trying to convince the <i>terrorists</i> to behave humanely. We&#039;re trying to prove to a sceptical <i>Middle East public</i> that <i>we&#039;re</i> capable of behaving humanely, even in the face of brutality.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Jimmie</title><link>http://www.sundriesshack.com/2006/06/20/no-quarter/comment-page-1/#comment-233589</link> <dc:creator>Jimmie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:42:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://sundriesshack.com/?p=2501#comment-233589</guid> <description>Well, Andy, I would have thought that my specific mention of the Mujehadeen Shura Council would have ben a clue. :)
Tom - It&#039;s not the torture that has inflamed me, but the revelation for what must be the bazillionth time, that our enemies in this war are not signatories to and indeed have no intention on honoring in even the smallest way, the Geneva Conventions. We have heard for four years how the GC must be our guiding light even as those waging war against us have used civilians for cover, have committed actual acts of torture, and have sawed off the heads of hostages. I simply point out that for all the warbling about the GC, we remain fairly ignorant of what it does and does not allow us to do. </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Andy, I would have thought that my specific mention of the Mujehadeen Shura Council would have ben a clue. <img
src='http://www.sundriesshack.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p><p>Tom &#8211; It&#039;s not the torture that has inflamed me, but the revelation for what must be the bazillionth time, that our enemies in this war are not signatories to and indeed have no intention on honoring in even the smallest way, the Geneva Conventions. We have heard for four years how the GC must be our guiding light even as those waging war against us have used civilians for cover, have committed actual acts of torture, and have sawed off the heads of hostages. I simply point out that for all the warbling about the GC, we remain fairly ignorant of what it does and does not allow us to do.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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